The Duke University Witchhunt

Scott Savitt commented on the case of Chinese student Grace Wang in Witchhunt which was published in the Duke University Chronicle.  But the case has been completely sidetracked by a question of honesty on a minor issue of who picked up Grace Wang from the airport when she first arrived (see, for example, the detailed regurgitation in DWnews (CH)).  The relevant comments on this issue are excerpted below.  These are selected excerpts and you can read the whole thing if you want to stomach it.

Let me leave you with these thoughts.

• If the goal is to convert the Chinese government to adopt a 'democratic' system, then it is pre-destined from the outset that any effort is going to be futile (because they will do so on their own terms and not someone else's).
• If the goal is to persuade the Chinese people living inside China that a 'democratic' system is good for them, then this essay and the contents in these comments are irrelevant to them.
• If the goal is to persuade the overseas Chinese people (both immigrants and students) that a 'democratic' system is good for China, then this essay may appeal to them but the contents in these comments will offend them to no end, because of the display of arrogance and contempt.
• If the goal is to persuade the American people that the Chinese government is evil, then this essay and these contents may or may not be effective.  The only thing that is certain is a teeny weeny fraction of Americans would read an opinion piece in the Duke University Chronicle.  This essay is read mostly among the Duke University community, and therefore its effects will be limited therein.

How do you get democracy in China?  Through the Chinese government?  the mainland Chinese people?  the overseas Chinese?  the American people? the Duke University community?  The last two items are wrong answers.  And cases like this one isn't going to persuade the first three groups.  If anything, it will make them even more resistant. 

Simply put, nobody wants to be stand there and be insulted for their commonsense, intelligence and 'patriotism.'

(Chinese, posted 4/28/08 @ 3:21 PM EST) 

Let me ask you one question, in your open letter to china@duke.edu, you said you first met Grace Wang on her first day to Duke. Quote "when Grace was in a cab, she asked me for directions". But do you know it was a DCSSA member who picked Grace up in the airport, (offer her a free ride) could you please explain this to us?

(Chinese student, posted 4/28/08 @ 4:14 PM EST) 

obviously scott is not the first person Miss Wang met. it is a DCSSA member who picked her up at the airport!!!!   Is this a similar mistake that Hillary clincon said she went to Bosnia and welcomed by Gunshot?

(Scott Savitt, posted 4/28/08 @ 11:18 PM EST) 

this is simply untrue. i just confirmed it with grace. no dcssa member picked her up at the airport. she came to duke in a cab by herself, they got lost behind east campus, and stopped and asked me for directions. where did you hear a dcssa member picked her up at the airport? believing and repeating hearsay and stating unsubstantiated rumors as fact has been a big part of this whole problem. you should independently confirm the accuracy of statements before presenting them as facts.

(Grace Wang: another lie!  posted 4/29/08 @ 7:40 AM EST) 

Dear Scott, Thank you for confirming it with Grace, who told the public another lie. I assure you DCSSA executive member Cong(the girl who drafted 71 student open letter to explain the motive behind the protest) and her husband picked Grace from the airport. Actually on their way back, Grace started talking about her interests in politics, even mentioned she had a boyfriend interning at white house.   This is just another example that Grace manipulated the truth.

(scott savitt, posted 4/29/08 @ 8:00 AM EST) 

you are simply wrong. there was no cong, no husband in that cab. please produce cong and get her to state this. you are repeating an untrue statement. you were not there, i was. there was no one else in grace's cab pure and simple.

(scott savitt, posted 4/29/08 @ 8:33 AM EST) 

please provide me cong's contact information so we can get to the bottom of this. or she is welcome to contact me. i trust that you can see that the majority in both this duke community and now in the international community at large do not agree with your zi yiwei shi tone and that you have just created huge obstacles to china's ongoing peaceful rise. you no doubt see that the economy is going bad in china. china cannot afford to insult the whole international community and act imperious and irrational like this at a time like this. you picked the worst time possible to disregard deng xiaoping's wise advice to "tao guang yang hui." the illiberal education you have all received has done you tremendous harm. look at this comments list alone. which "side" is more reasonable? and the fact that your community chose a 20 year old girl to pick on is one of the most disgusting things of all. where were all the members speaking out on her behalf? your sole concern was with protecting dcssa. i don't believe the organization as a whole was responsible, and i don't believe in punishing the whole for the actions of some, but i believe with all my heart that li zhizhong's inaction in stopping the original abusive posts in march is what caused this to happen to grace wang and as dcssa's top officer the organization must bear some responsibility for that. now there is a serious campaign to get dcssa's charter revoked, and all you do is fulminate, not try to seriously reflect and understand why you might be unwelcome now. starting from the nature of that april 9 counterprotest, with all the messages to "LET'S GO KICK THEIR ASSES," your chinese community here showed your profound lack of understanding for how this society works. you need to learn so much more about not only this country and the west but your own country. you criticize our media but don't say a word about your own "ears, eyes, throat and tongue" party controlled media in your own country. is this not extremely hypocritical? i have lost so much respect for your new generation of chinese. your parents--who really knew how to chi ku (eat bitterness)--were better representatives of your great country and culture.

(scott savitt, posted 4/30/08 @ 3:50 PM EST)

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:25:28 -0400
From: cong.jin@duke.edu
Subject: Re: grace wang
X-NetID: cj25
X-Virus-Status: Clean

Hi, Scott,

Yes, my husband and I voluntarily picked up Ms Wang from Airport. And her flight was delayed one day than the original date. We picked her at the late night and sent her to a hotel near costco, and the next morning my husband and I picked her again from the hotel to east campus. There, a boy welcomed us and registered Ms Wang, we also helped Ms Wang to transfer her baggages to her dorm.

dear cong jin:

thank you so much for your kind and quick response. you are right and i am wrong. i finally did confirm with grace that when i met her in the cab you and your husband had already dropped her off and she had gone out shopping and gotten lost. wo ren cuo (mea culpa).

please understand that the only reason this became an issue is because a friend of yours, "china-chan" (i do understand the reticence to post real names, i am a citizen here, you guys are not), maintained that this was an issue of grace's credibility, and i strongly disagree with that. 1. she is a kid. 2. she is still being attacked on the china-chapel hill list and mitbbs (see this disgusting thing: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/ChinaNews/31433443.html). 3. her family cannot return home and she cannot return to china because of what has been done to her. 4. few people in the duke-china community have defended her, instead offered excuses for why she deserved it. it is in this context that i strongly reacted to the suggestion that her "credibility" was at issue over the airport ride. she is finally getting some rest after all this nightmare and i finally had the opportunity to sit down with her and she explained to me clearly the airport chronology.

i thank you for your kindness in picking her up. i apologize for not confirming this before making statements about it, that is my mistake. i trust you and china-chan can recognize that what i was responding to was the insinuation that any question of her "credibility" somehow justifies what has been done to her. that is mind-boggling imho.

when she spoke out at the protest my instinct was to stop her because i knew how upset that crowd of chinese was. my thought process was: in a chinese context a young girl like her speaking out is bad and will not be well accepted. but since i have been back from china for several years, my american side kicked in and said: "she is a freshman at duke. participating in political debates is an integral part of the education process. let her have her say." of course with hindsight i wish i had intervened and spared her this suffering. but i still maintain that blaming her is blaming the victim. she is a good kid. but she is a kid. but the notion that some headstrong ideas on the part of a female freshman in any way legitimizes what has been done to her is beyond the pale of decency.

please accept my admission of error and regret for any inconvenience caused. i wish that everyone involved in this debacle would similarly reflect on their actions.

(confused, posted 5/07/08 @ 9:24 AM EST) 

Sorry, I don't get it, is there any reasonalble relationship between the 4 points you mentioned and lying about the airpot ride? Did she lie about being give an airport ride just because 1.she is a kid. 2.being attacked on Mitbbs. 3.family cannot go home. 4.few people support her?   what's the logic connecting the 4 reasons and the result of her lying of airpot ride? I know your are a jounalist and I do not intend to question your capacity of reasonable judgement, but at this point, I am confused, could you explain it again: why did she lie about being given an airport ride, it is a serious issue? and what's the logical connection between your 4 reasons and the fact? I never knew airport ride is such a big big big big issue that worths lying.

(Cong Jin, posted 4/30/08 @ 5:14 PM EST)

Scott, my friend told me that you posted the content of my email to you on this public website. I came here and felt very disappointed about your behaviour. First, before you really got my email feedback you claimed that I denied the pick-up of Ms Wang. Second, when I responded your email and claimed the fact that my husband and I picked up Ms Wang, you posted my private email with my personal information online without ask my permission ahead. Third, even you posted my email online without my permission, you deliberately select some contents to post. The email you posted is not the whole email I sent to you. In fact, my second paragraph of the email told you that I got Ms Wang's information from DCSSA new student service department, which organized the pick-up of new coming chinese students including Ms Wang. I chose to pick Ms Wang from a list of other chinese new students is only because the time is good for me to do it. Fouth, the way you responded my private email to you is just posting it on this website but not directly sent it to my email box. Is it a way to respect people that replying her email by posting the reply on a public website? Until now, I still did not receive any your reply to my email last night, and surprisingly to see your supply to my email here online. How could you know I will see your reply here? If it is not my friend told me about you posted my private email here, I would not come here and could not see your reply. But after going through all you did here, what I am doubting is your credibility!

(scott savitt, posted 4/30/08 @ 6:10 PM EST)

dear cong:

i am very sorry for any/all inconvenience to you. please understand, i am here completely exposed, everyone knows my name, my email address, can find my telephone number, where i live, and i am dealing with many hostile people, none of whom will reveal their names. it was in this context that i thought i must demonstrate the authenticity of your message.

First, before you really got my email feedback you claimed that I denied the pick-up of Ms Wang.

again, i believe that my explanation about the questioning of grace's "credibility" explains this. please understand, in helping grace i have been under some of the similar pressure that she has been under. she feels like no one has offered to help her but me.

Second, when I responded your email and claimed the fact that my husband and I picked up Ms Wang, you posted my private email with my personal information online without ask my permission ahead. Third, even you posted my email online without my permission, you deliberately select some contents to post.

i posted the relevant passage that confirmed you picked her up. again i am sorry for not requesting your permission, but believe i have explained this. i trust that you can see these are extremely unusual circumstances.

The email you posted is not the whole email I sent to you.

that is correct. i repeat i posted the information relevant to the discussion at hand.

In fact, my second paragraph of the email told you that I got Ms Wang's information from DCSSA new student service department, which organized the pick-up of new coming chinese students including Ms Wang. I chose to pick Ms Wang from a list of other chinese new students is only because the time is good for me to do it. Fouth, the way you responded my private email to you is just posting it on this website but not directly sent it to my email box. Is it a way to respect people that replying her email by posting the reply on a public website? Until now, I still did not receive any your reply to my email last night, and surprisingly to see your supply to my email here online. How could you know I will see your reply here?

i was confident "china-chan" would tell you immediately, as it is clear he/she did. i was going to respond to you privately as well, i thought the public information was important to post first, especially when it was admitting my mistake. i would like to see some other people admit that their actions of the past three weeks have been less than carefully considered.

If it is not my friend told me about you posted my private email here, I would not come here and could not see your reply. But after going through all you did here, what I am doubting is your credibility!

you are of course welcome to your opinion, but i again humbly submit it does not take into sufficient account the extenuating and tragic circumstances in which my action took place. have you reached out to grace and offered your support or concern in all of this?

(call me commi if you want, posted 4/30/08 @ 6:27 PM EST) 

Is the following paragraph written by you, scott? Is it your mistake or Grace Wang's mistake?

this is simply untrue. i just confirmed it with grace. no dcssa member picked her up at the airport. she came to duke in a cab by herself, they got lost behind east campus, and stopped and asked me for directions. where did you hear a dcssa member picked her up at the airport? believing and repeating hearsay and stating unsubstantiated rumors as fact has been a big part of this whole problem. you should independently confirm the accuracy of statements before presenting them as facts.

(scott savitt, posted 4/30/08 @ 8:39 PM EST)  Is the following paragraph written by you, scott?   Is it your mistake or Grace Wang's mistake?

it is my mistake. you cannot separate any of this from the fact that since attacks on grace and her family began appearing on the china@duke.edu list and the dcssa website three weeks ago grace's life has been hell and i felt obligated to help her weather this hell. neither of us have slept more than one or two hours per night for the past 21 days. how many of you have so much as lifted a finger to help her? it was in this context that this relatively insignificant (in the larger scheme of these events) misstatement got made. your obsession with it says more about your lack of perspective and clear thinking than her/my credibility. it is what we call "missing the forest for the trees."

(to scott, posted 4/30/08 @ 9:46 PM EST)

Dear Scott,

Thank you for confirming the airport pickup with grace. I am happy that we reach an agreement.

Let me share with you many of my chinese friends' feeling towards Grace. On Apr 9th's night, we did't make a fuss over her, just simply considered she was a young kid with some different opinions (and most of us don't know who she is). Then in the next few days, we were also appalled (just like you) by the internet mobs' behaviors and felt sympathetic towards her(take China list serv for example, 1200 registered users, around 30 people participated in the discussion, and less than 10 people verbally attacked her, you can probably confirm the number since you are on the list). But our feelings change the next week when she started to speak out and blamed duke chinese community.

Has she ever mentioned her pickup by a dcssa member? For me, I will remember who picked me up at the airport FOREVER because this is my first day to US, to Duke! My understanding of her denial is: she doesn't want to claim she is a member of dcssa! but, the simple fact is: she is a member of duke chinese community! I admit that a few people don't like her and attack her, but most community members do have the tolerance, understand freedom of speech! (we have all witnessed when Karl Rove came to talk at Duke and being protested, we all admire Columbia Univ president insisted Iranian President's speech and President Brodhead insisted Palestian movement conference at Duke)

Grace had a lot of exposure to media in the past week. She made many many remarks on a wide range of topics. Some of her remarks do make sense to us, for example, she said currently in China, many wisdom people don't speak out and she called this phenomenon "great silence majority", which I agree. (BTW, this is a Duke alum Nixon's creation, then a late Chinese author Wang xiaobo used it in Chinese literature). But she also made many random remarks towards Duke chinese community. Look at her remark in dwnews.com and epochtimes, she described DCSSA leadership as "tou mu"(dear scott, you must understand this word, right?), she said this organization has a long history of bad reputation, then I could not ask, then why does she ask us to pick her up? She also gave hints to the media that dcssa is associated with Chinese embassy, have mysterious background.... Of course we overseas chinese students want to get connected with our embassy. dear scott, when you were in BJ, didn't you get in touch with US embassy? If connecting with Chinese embassy is such a bad thing, why Brodhead gave Ambassor Zhou wenzhng such a warm welcome when he visited duke last year?

I am going to stop here. Thank you for reading so much. I apologize for not disclosing my identity here---because I am not a public person. But I hope we will have a chance to meet in the future---I will treat you a chinese dinner instead having a cup of beer, and I assure it is not "hong men yan".

Thank you!

(scott savitt, posted 4/30/08 @ 11:42 PM EST)

Thank you for confirming the airport pickup with grace. I am happy that we reach an agreement.

Let me share with you many of my chinese friends' feeling towards Grace. On Apr 9th's night, we did't make a fuss over her, just simply considered she was a young kid with some different opinions (and most of us don't know who she is). Then in the next few days, we were also appalled (just like you) by the internet mobs' behaviors and felt sympathetic towards her(take China list serv for example, 1200 registered users, around 30 people participated in the discussion, and less than 10 people verbally attacked her, you can probably confirm the number since you are on the list).

i am too exhausted to confirm this right now, but i agree it is almost certainly a tiny minority.

But our feelings change the next week when she started to speak out and blamed duke chinese community.

with all due respect, i do not believe she did this. as you see, the china@duke.edu listserve and dukechina.org are now strictly monitored. why did it take a tragedy like this for this simple oversight to be put in place? you may know that death threats have been posted on dukechina.org against a duke faculty member before (they apparently remained on the site for six months in spite of repeated requests to remove them). i was told this by a duke administrator directly responsible for dcssa. and then in the fuqua cheating scandal--again according to the administrator--"dcssa involved themselves in a way they should not have." this is of course just the word of one person, but there are many in the duke administration/community who know that there have been problems in the past and so the treatment of grace did not surprise anyone. if i was a member of duke's chinese community, i would have proactively taken pains to clear/improve this reputation. instead the weakest member of your community--a 20-year-old girl--was attacked and few if any voices came to her defense. this kind of cowardice and lack of collective responsibility/civic consciousness is extremely disrespected here. you say you are concerned about the reputation of the chinese community and that grace wang harmed it. you harmed it yourselves with your actions or lack thereof! this is a product of that guochi/victim mentality education. always look for someone else to blame. don't look to yourself to see if you bear responsibility and if you can do something proactive to remedy a situation. this is the biggest difference between our two cultures, why we do not and will not see eye to eye until china grows more secure and stops always thinking of itself/yourselves as permanent victims.

Has she ever mentioned her pickup by a dcssa member?

i believe that i have duly clarified this. yes she has recognized this. it was a misunderstanding, not any unwillingness on her part to not give credit where it is due. she is not this kind of ungrateful person, the way you are so ready to characterize her. in the u.s. people are considered innocent until proven guilty. but i do not think that is true in today's china.

For me, I will remember who picked me up at the airport FOREVER because this is my first day to US, to Duke!

she remembers fine. she has had bigger things to worry about thanks to some malicious people here.

My understanding of her denial is: she doesn't want to claim she is a member of dcssa!

she is not a member of dcssa. many chinese students and scholars here want nothing to do with dcssa. but that is beside the point. what is clear is your desire to control an independent person in a foreign/free country. with all due respect, debating you is a simple matter because you simply do not think logically.

but, the simple fact is: she is a member of duke chinese community!

what does that mean?! do you define this community? it is this need to identify as a group and fear of existing as an individual here that so harms the image of the "chinese community" here at duke. look at these 150 comments. the vast majority strongly disdain your "wo shi ni baba"/collective-supercedes-the-individual worldview. if you are so afraid of existing as an individual--or allowing a female freshman to do so--why come to america in the first place?

I admit that a few people don't like her and attack her, but most community members do have the tolerance, understand freedom of speech! (we have all witnessed when Karl Rove came to talk at Duke and being protested, we all admire Columbia Univ president insisted Iranian President's speech and President Brodhead insisted Palestian movement conference at Duke)

i seriously question whether you do understand freedom of speech. it does not just mean being passive. it means under circumstances like these standing up and defending someone else's right to free speech, regardless of the content (and the truth is that her content was anodyne. she is not for tibetan independence and never said so. that was distorted for propaganda purposes on dukechina.org, mitbbs and cctv websites). you and your communitymates sat by and watched a defenseless girl viciously attacked and did nothing. that is cowardly. you have done tremendous harm to the reputation of your duke chinese community and china's reputation here in general. not grace wang. YOU!

Grace had a lot of exposure to media in the past week.

correction, in the past three weeks. do you understand why? precisely for the reasons i state above. because the media here believes that their readers should know how little you young chinese understand how democracy really works.

She made many many remarks on a wide range of topics.

i was present for most/all of her interviews. you don't know what she said because you were not there. once a story enters that media storm, it takes on a life of its own. but you still don't understand the reason the media was interested in the first place. it is because a 20 year old girl was attacked and her chinese "community-mates" did nothing to assist her. that is what sickens americans.

Some of her remarks do make sense to us, for example, she said currently in China, many wisdom people don't speak out and she called this phenomenon "great silence majority", which I agree. (BTW, this is a Duke alum Nixon's creation, then a late Chinese author Wang xiaobo used it in Chinese literature).

i don't credit richard nixon with creating the phrase "great silent majority" but that is another topic.

But she also made many random remarks towards Duke chinese community.

i have tried to analyze this with her, to emphasize that she should try her hardest to not make any statement she is not certain of. but you are still completely misunderstanding the larger significance of what has occurred here! you act with a herd mentality, you have no conception of individual responsibility. why have you never contacted grace to express your concern for what has happened to her family? that is what appalls americans, that it does not even occur to you to do that. that is a product of your "do not stick your head up" education.

Look at her remark in dwnews.com and epochtimes, she described DCSSA leadership as "tou mu"(dear scott, you must understand this word, right?),

of course i know the term ringleader, i have seen it so much in the chinese media. but you have no idea if she said this or if her words were taken out of context. this is another problem with your education. you fundamentally misunderstand how western media works. this is why the only ones your "anti-cnn" campaign makes any sense to are other chinese like you. westerners just dismiss it. cnn makes mistakes? tell me something i don't already know! yet you say nothing about cctv/peoples daily. you are profoundly confused about the nature of the society and culture you are living in.

she said this organization has a long history of bad reputation, then I could not ask, then why does she ask us to pick her up?

your logic is fundamentally flawed. dcssa does have a bad reputation among the duke administration who have been responsible for them. this is why grace has a lawyer and the fbi is investigating what took place here. chinese people are still gloating on the china@duke and unc china listserves that nothing is going to happen. this investigation has only just begun. what has happened to grace wang will never happen to a duke student again. that will be made certain of. the law will decide if dcssa or its individual members bear responsibility for the crimes that have been committed here (yes, death threats are a serious crime).

She also gave hints to the media that dcssa is associated with Chinese embassy, have mysterious background....

you do not know this either. do not believe everything you read.

Of course we overseas chinese students want to get connected with our embassy.

you have a very different relationship with your government than average americans do with ours. most americans in china have nothing to do with the u.s. embassy. we like living as individuals, not identifying only as a group.

dear scott, when you were in BJ, didn't you get in touch with US embassy?

very very little, as is true of most americans. there is no need. in the u.s. we separate government and civil society. that is a development i hope grows stronger in china. it is a necessary foundation of grassroots democracy. like the chinese government recently jailing the aids activist hu jia for three years for his peaceful political activism. it is actions like these that make foreigners want to protest the olympic torch relay. but of course the olympics must not be politicized you say. who politicized it to begin with? i don't know if you were at the april 9 protest. i was, and i saw your chinese community playing at democracy without taking the effort to really understand it.

If connecting with Chinese embassy is such a bad thing, why Brodhead gave Ambassor Zhou wenzhng such a warm welcome when he visited duke last year?

again your leap of logic is frightening. what does one have to do with the other?

I am going to stop here. Thank you for reading so much. I apologize for not disclosing my identity here

i don't blame you. your government makes you live in fear. that must change. rather than making grace wang live in fear with you, you should secretly applaud her refusal to be silenced. she is the one who is truly sacrificing for china's brighter future.

---because I am not a public person.

that i have less respect for. you are willing to speak in public anonymously but not with your true identity. that is representative of the larger problem we have seen at work in your community.

But I hope we will have a chance to meet in the future---I will treat you a chinese dinner instead having a cup of beer, and I assure it is not "hong men yan".

i appreciate your words and i am sorry if my above is too harsh. i do not blame you personally, i obviously don't know you. and i am no liu bang, so hongmenyan does not apply. i welcome meeting you or any other reader in person. you are welcome to email me privately. i have met many fine chinese members of the duke community through this tragedy. i believe that is the silver lining in this sad event.

Thank you!

bu yong xie ah! thank you too. scott

(scott savitt, posted 5/05/08 @ 12:09 PM EST)

(response, posted 5/05/08 @ 3:37 PM EST)

Hi Scott,

In fact, DCSSA's president is elected in a democratic system.

All Duke Chinese (ethnic Chinese) students, scholars, staff and professors can vote and can run for the president.

How can you say that we Chinese are badly represented?

(Hi, Scott, posted 5/05/08 @ 5:57 PM EST)

(A chinese grad student, posted 5/05/08 @ 6:51 PM EST)

(Hi Scott, posted 5/05/08 @ 7:28 PM EST)

(suggestion to Scott posted 5/07/08 @ 7:41 PM EST)

Dear Scott,

Friendly suggestion to you. I do think that you guys need to address the situation involving Ms. Wang's living arrangement last December. The longer you have this hanging out there the more credibility problem you will have. Will you please get a full statement from her so we people can judge her side of the story?

I accept the fact that she needs to complete her exams and papers. The academic deans have probably imposed some kind of deadline on her (they are not too willing to postpone schoolwork forever) and doing well in school is important for someone on an academic scholarship. But when will she complete her academic work? I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt but it is starting to look like she is using this as an excuse to avoid answering the charge that she made up one aspect of the story. So Grace should make a statement about this--and soon.

Thanks.

(scott savitt, posted 5/08/08 @ 2:14 AM EST)

(saimneor  posted 5/08/08 @ 2:54 AM EST)

Hi Scott,

It helps in almost all situations to have more communications. I have a few requests though. When Wang calms down and has spare time, can she reply these questions herself? This is not a report for the Post so your professional editing is not necessary. Not to dis-credit your help of Wang, but your recent passing of messages between two parties has itself created many confusions. Now things are getting harder to clarify and people, including myself, can not easily say I trust what you are saying (e.g. you used to be very certain about the cab). All this is unnecessary if we could get rid of the middle man from this picture. (again not to offend you, just the facts that when words are passed from person to person they tend to change a little bit each time.)

Another things is related to Ms. Wang's parents. I read somewhere that Ms. Wang was sending daily emails or phone calls to her parents and they were all in good condition. In other words, they were not prosecuted. Again, see if you can stop saying so unless you have hard evidence, and let Ms. Wang clarify it.

Finally, as far as I know calling Ms. Wang a traitor is only among chinese people, not the government. When you concluded that the government will not allow Ms. Wang to return to China, did Ms Wang get any threats from the Embassy? Even if you consider the Embassy as evil, it may help just to give them a call about this situation and see what they say. I would find it strange the CCP government even care about this whole thing.

Like it or not, Ms. Wang is now a public figure. And she needs to understand some of her information that used to be considered as privacy is no longer protected. I could be wrong, but I believe US law and Chinese law are the same regarding this topic. There is nothing against her when we talk about her family's current situations.

(scott savitt posted 5/08/08 @ 5:33 AM EST saimneor posted 5/08/08 @ 2:54 AM EST )

Hi Scott,

It helps in almost all situations to have more communications. I have a few requests though. When Wang calms down and has spare time, can she reply these questions herself?

she knows that these exchanges are taking place. if she is interested, of course she will participate. but i doubt that she will. i think that she has seen too much how people see and hear what they want to see and hear, and twist words to meet their needs. but please know that is simply my own opinion. i can tell you what i will do, not what she will do. in spite of all the ugly aspersions, i do not control her actions in any way.

This is not a report for the Post so your professional editing is not necessary.

again it has nothing to do with editing. and i did not "edit" the post piece either, just transcribed it as english is not her native language.

Not to dis-credit your help of Wang, but your recent passing of messages between two parties has itself created many confusions.

i agree. i do not enjoy this role. the only reason i did it is that without my "passing of messages" you would not have had any of the information i have offered. i humbly submit it was better than nothing. i still think that the "airport pickup error" is a tempest in a teapot (excuse the pun). it says nothing except that there is confusion under extraordinarily stressful circumstances; and that i care about the truth and am willing to admit a mistake and correct it when i misspeak.

Now things are getting harder to clarify

i disagree. no harder or easier than ever. your above an example of grace's fear that people see and hear what they want to see and hear. you of course are welcome to contact me privately and meet me and/or her. i believe strongly that if you met me you would recognize that i am someone who cares about the truth (and about china).

and people, including myself, can not easily say I trust what you are saying (e.g. you used to be very certain about the cab).

again, with all due respect, have you never made a mistake under intense pressure? heard another person while under stress say something that turned out to be misleading? or perhaps you have never known someone whose parents' have been attacked and driven into hiding, and know what that does to them psychologically and how fragile a state of mind that induces? again why email is such an imperfect medium all around and face to face is much better.

All this is unnecessary if we could get rid of the middle man from this picture. (again not to offend you, just the facts that when words are passed from person to person they tend to change a little bit each time.)

you are right, and we have stated clearly that this is an imperfect arrangement. but i repeat i don't think you are going to get her to take the witness stand here. she does not feel she has anything to defend, she did nothing wrong but exercise her u.s. constitution-protected right to free speech. you seem to take as god-given your right to interrogate. i don't mind because i believe that truth is the highest virtue. but she does not recognize your right to interrogate her (imho).

Another things is related to Ms. Wang's parents. I read somewhere that Ms. Wang was sending daily emails or phone calls to her parents and they were all in good condition.

what you read is wrong. they exchange occasional emails, and they are in dire circumstances.

In other words, they were not prosecuted.

your willingness to believe what you read about this (i.e. that they are in "good condition" in spite of being driven from their home)--and in spite of your admitting that "when words are passed from person to person they tend to change a little bit each time"--seems inconsistent.

Again, see if you can stop saying so unless you have hard evidence, and let Ms. Wang clarify it.

again "hard evidence" via a third person via email is a hard standard. and nothing stops you from meeting face to face if you really care about "hard evidence" (like looking someone in the eye when you talk to them. i always do that to see if i believe someone or not).

Finally, as far as I know calling Ms. Wang a traitor is only among chinese people, not the government.

is the government responsible for the content of the cctv website? (this is an honest question).

When you concluded that the government will not allow Ms. Wang to return to China, did Ms Wang get any threats from the Embassy?

this is a legitimate question. conversely: what do you think would happen if wang qianyuan stepped off a plane in china now? "threats from the embassy" are not how political problems in china are usually (if ever) communicated.

Even if you consider the Embassy as evil,

i do not. i do not believe in "evil." i believe that those politicians are not chosen by the people but by the party. that is all.

it may help just to give them a call about this situation and see what they say.

i have called the chinese embassy in d.c. they refuse to comment on wang's case.

I would find it strange the CCP government even care about this whole thing.

then i would think that your view is naive (no offense intended). someone in the embassy in d.c. and in the government in beijing is paying very close attention to these developments. anytime a china story is on the front page of the ny times, washington post (news and opinion pages) and l.a. times simultaneously, it is someone's job in the chinese government to pay close attention (and should be) . you may think that sounds self-promotional. i assure you it is not, my role in these events was undesirable and unpleasant for me. no one can "create" a story with this much human interest.

Like it or not, Ms. Wang is now a public figure.

you are correct in this statement.

And she needs to understand some of her information that used to be considered as privacy is no longer protected.

i don't know if you mean legally (probably true) or ethically (more questionable regarding a 20-year-old woman who has been so horribly vilified). also it is my understanding that what happened to her family is as much a crime in china as it is here, although it does not appear it is being investigated as such.

I could be wrong, but I believe US law and Chinese law are the same regarding this topic. There is nothing against her when we talk about her family's current situations.   One thing I can assure you is that Grace Wang can definitely return to China.

with all due respect you can assure no such thing. if not in danger legally, she would certainly be in danger from the same vigilanteism that victimized her parents.

She said in the chronicle interview that her source of info told her that she is on a blacklist. If she returns, she may be in jail forever.

i told the chronicle reporter and grace that statement was an exaggeration (we all must remember, the chronicle is a student newspaper). but i do not think she would be safe if she returned to china now.

This is completely bullshit.

you mean "complete bull----." very eloquent of you.

(Outsider, posted 5/08/08 @ 5:56 AM EST )

(scott savitt posted 5/08/08 @ 6:46 AM EST)

 to stretch a metaphor: to a hammer everything looks like a nail.

the reason i am continuing to post here is not to try to win over those who are convinced i am an ideologue or a sociopath, but to appeal to those independent-minded people who grant the benefit of the doubt and accept that i am trying to be respectful and tell the truth.

this discussion always comes back full circle to the fact that these two cultures (china and the u.s.) are so dramatically different that even with the best of intentions we are bound to miscommunicate and mistrust each other. that is the gap--the "cognitive dissonance" as one poster termed it--that i am trying to bridge. probably miserably unsuccessfully. but i believe that it is still worth trying. for those who believe i have malicious motives, nothing i say will persuade them otherwise. i am targeting those who believe i am trying my best to bridge the cultural, language, and educational divides and have honest intentions, and i believe that this is the majority. i believe, for example, that "saimneor" fits this description, and am confident that if he came to my house for very high quality pu-erh tea in one of the zisha (purple clay) pots from my yixing teapot collection (yes i love chinese tea culture, but i am sure many of you will believe i am lying about this too), he would respect and like me, and report back that i am a true friend of china (again, whatever that means). i have spent the past 25 years, since i started studying chinese at duke, trying to create common ground with chinese people (and with all due modesty achieving some success at it, in spite of all the present evidence to the contrary).

i am afraid of the consequences if people like me throw up our hands in despair and allow our two cultures and countries to drift further apart in our world views. that is why i continue to communicate here in spite of the name-calling and abuse i face.

fyi, i am almost finished with a book detailing my two decades living and working in china. it is being translated into chinese, and i welcome feedback on it. i just hope that i can be given the benefit of the doubt that i am pursuing truth (cross-cultural truth, notoriously elusive).

(scott savitt  posted 5/08/08 @ 7:40 AM EST )

(Be Reasonable, PLEASE!  posted 5/08/08 @ 11:32 AM EST )

How come a student who was able to write essays in the application package and was able to get scholarship from Duke suddenly are facing language barrier that preventing her answering a simple question like who picked her up from airport when she first arrived at US? A simple comparison, I came to the State in year 2000. I can still recall names of the drivers and the 2 other passengers in the same car.

Mr. Savitt have said repeatedly that she has a lot things to worry about which may prevent her from thinking clearly. However, if someone can be interviewed many times and has expressed her opinions clearly (e.g., the NPR interview), how come suddenly she can not answer a simple question like who picked her up from airport or whether she lived with some students or not?

BE CREATIVE PLEASE! Come up with some better excuses that the readers will happy to accept. How about she has been not eating for 3 months, or not sleeping for 2 years, or have been visiting the Mar in the last 20 years so that she has not idea what is going on this this world.

(Dear Scott, help please  posted 5/08/08 @ 7:53 AM EST )

(Be Reasonable, PLEASE  posted 5/08/08 @ 12:14 PM EST )

(call me commi if you want  posted 5/08/08 @ 1:43 PM EST )

What her parents got was some sort of bad pranks...they wrote on their wall and poured some dirt outside their door...I'm not saying that it is right to do so...I'm just saying that it was definitely not a "life or death" situation.

Now nobody even cares...Chinese forums got new topics...only scott was stirring the pot

(chinese journalist  posted 5/08/08 @ 8:39 PM EST )

(Dear Scott, help please  posted 5/09/08 @ 7:10 AM EST )

(scott savitt  posted 5/09/08 @ 8:40 AM EST )

(Dear Scott, help please  posted 5/09/08 @ 11:01 AM EST )

(sloppy journalism doesn't help  posted 5/09/08 @ 3:59 PM EST )

(scott savitt  posted 5/09/08 @ 4:52 PM EST )

(C'est  posted 5/10/08 @ 3:16 AM EST )

(A Friendly Advice  posted 5/09/08 @ 6:17 PM EST )

(scott savitt  posted 5/09/08 @ 10:34 PM EST)

(A girl who try to understand this world  posted 5/10/08 @ 12:51 AM EST )

(Great China  posted 5/10/08 @ 1:31 AM EST )

(Dear Scott, help please posted 5/10/08 @ 5:04 AM EST )

(scott savitt  posted 5/10/08 @ 5:05 AM EST )

(A girl who try to understand this world  posted 5/10/08 @ 10:13 AM EST )